Should there be a standard Diagnostic charge

I'll chime in a little on the extremely low cost oil change deals that are out there. The reason most of us (small one or 2 man shops) don't do them is because it doesn't work economically for us. I don't purchase enough oil or buy the cheap filters to be able to get my COGS down to $8/oil change. I purchase NAPA gold oil filters and use bottled oil (again, I don't use enough oil to buy it in bulk, a 55 gallon drum may last me a year). It costs me over $17 for materials for an oil change. If I priced it at $19.95 I would be losing money. I am priced at $26.95 for a full-on lube, oil and filter which includes lubricating the locks, door hinges, trunk and hood hinges, fill washer fluid, brake fluid, PS fluid, etc... I end up with about $7 for my labor, I think that is low enough. To be honest, I would rather not be pushing a low cost oil change and would rather push a "Free" scan of codes as that will invariably lead to more work without a feeling of "bait and switch". If I offered a low cost oil change and the customer left with a $75 ticket that would bother me. I have read that the "average" ticket at most oil change places is over $75. Those people are just looking for an oil change and they end up with the motor flush or coolant flush or trans flush, etc.... Those are customers that won't be back or will tell their friends about how they got scammed at "xyz" auto shop.

I don't see this forum as a meeting place for quick-lubes or shops like that. I may be wrong, but I think most of the shops on here are more of the "independent" type trying to be competitive in a difficult market. I also think the bait-and-switch doesn't have to be getting them in the door with a low advertised price and then hitting them with a higher price for the same service. It can also mean (to me) getting them in the door with a low cost service and then hitting them with high pressure sales of another add-on service. That to me is bait-and-switch. If you are truly honest about a $19.95 oil change being profitable then you shouldn't be upset that you have a service manager that isn't up-selling customers. I would have to say that is probably not the case.

In my case, I don't want to have to put on a hard sell to get a customer to spend more with me. If they are happy with just an oil change then I am happy to provide that service for them.

Mark, I have intentionally waited to participate in this forum to see how others would respond. As the co-founder of AutoShopOwner.com I did not want my comments in any way dictate the direction of the conversation. Rather, I wanted the members of ASO to openly express their feelings on this touchy subject.

 

Initially the term you used, “lurking”, seemed a bit offensive and I wanted to be sure I understood what you thoughts and opinions are before jumping into the forum.

 

I am a 38 year veteran of the aftermarket “independent” and spent the last 30 years in my own business. I don’t know your background, but I will tell you mine.

 

Guys like me came from the streets. We were fixing cars while still in high school and did it because we loved everything about mechanics. We were the best of the best in terms of repairing cars so we naturally started our own shops. It was not long after we were in business that we realized that the skills of mechanics have little to do with the skills of running a business. We had no formal business training prior to starting our companies.

 

But changing one’s mind set is difficult for many independents. I guess I was lucky and did change. I changed from the “man in business” to the “businessman”. The more I learning about business the more my company grew. Last year I build a second location and I need to tell you I researched all business models from quick lubes, tire stores, dealerships and other franchises in creating my own business plan.

 

I have grown steadily through the years and continue to grow in a time where most other businesses are having a tough time and many are failing.

 

The oil change issue can be debated to death, and I can appreciate both sides. I have adopted a lost leader approach with respect to oil changes because I too believe that a healthy car counts promotes opportunity and opportunity increases sales.

 

We can also debate the “Free Scan and Advise” issue to death also. I see both sides and fully understand the marketing approach you speak of.

 

The thing to remember is that we are all in this game together. We need to learn from each other and work to be the best we can be. But people have the right to choose how they run their business and we must be tolerant of others and not judgmental. Yes, I have to admit, that like you the business decisions I have made resulted in a tremendous growth spurt in the last two years, primarily for all the reasons you speak of Mark. However, I can’t impose my beliefs on others and I hold all my fellow ASO colleagues in the highest esteem.

 

Maybe I am a dreamer, but collectively we can make a difference. That’s why I have dedicated a great portion of my time to my website, AutoShopOwner.com. Through the open exchange and sharing of ideas, great things can happen.

 

The truth is Mark, we NEED to hear from business people like yourself and I for one welcome you aboard. Please don’t “Lurk”. Please participate; we can all learn from each other.

 

Joe Marconi

Joe,

I first want to apologize for the use the phrase "lurker" maybe it's not the best terminology. Basically I've been watching and reading for a little while now and I really enjoy it. My biggest issue is I just don't have near the time I would like to write in the forums. I will make a more concerted effort to do so in the future because gentleman I genuinely respect all of you. You are all class acts, I've seen it and read it for a couple of years now. I guess that's what motivated me to post to begin with and you are correct both oil change and scan test can be debated to death. I just wanted folks to know that there was someone out there whom it works for and I am not a crook or "bait and switching" the customer from any point of view. I felt comfortable enough with these forums to do so because of the open exchange of ideas and the top notch folks on here. I digress..

I too am a dreamer. I am so motivated to change the reputation of this industry. I, like you, am a hard working honest man and nothing bothers me more the general perception of our industry (I am reminded of a story/post I read here about a customer out in the shop talking to a shopowner's son about making sure he went to college so he didn't have to work in the shop...WOW that hit home!) and how we can be our own worst enemies. I knew from the beginning that I wanted to be part of the next generation of auto shop owner's and operaters. Let me give you a quick run down of my history.

At 19 I was looking for a "job" and just happened to stumble one as a lube tech in a 8 bay shop in Atlanta. It was 6 bays of repair/maint/etc and 2 bays for oil changes. We averaged about 300 cars a week, split 50/50 with OC's and repairs.

I had never really worked on cars much to that point but was always mechanically inclined, so that part really just came easy. About 2 wks in I had that shining moment in my life where I had found my calling. I knew I wanted to own my own shop and I wanted to be one of the good guys doing it. I immediately dove into tech school and working on the thing I didn't prefer to do..deal with people. I'm a personalable guy and love people but given the choice (even today) I would be OK locked in my office with my laptop. I knew even at 19 that I was going to have to excel at every position in the shop to be a good owner. So long story short I did those things, and now I am a multi shop owner with 5 shops in 4 different markets, doing all things to all vehicles. Noone handed me anything, I earned it, and I have made alot of mistakes but the hard work and honesty pulled me through along with a couple of key things.

* Be Honest

* Treat Your Customers Like You Would Treat Your Grandmother

* Good People (employees) Solve Problems!

* Communications Is A Must (both with customers and employee's alike)

* It's A Big Pie (we only need a sliver)

There's alot more to the story but I won't bore you any further.

Thanks for letting me be a part of your dream.

Collectively we CAN make a difference!

Joe,

I first want to apologize for the use the phrase "lurker" maybe it's not the best terminology. Basically I've been watching and reading for a little while now and I really enjoy it. My biggest issue is I just don't have near the time I would like to write in the forums. I will make a more concerted effort to do so in the future because gentleman I genuinely respect all of you. You are all class acts, I've seen it and read it for a couple of years now. I guess that's what motivated me to post to begin with and you are correct both oil change and scan test can be debated to death. I just wanted folks to know that there was someone out there whom it works for and I am not a crook or "bait and switching" the customer from any point of view. I felt comfortable enough with these forums to do so because of the open exchange of ideas and the top notch folks on here. I digress..

I too am a dreamer. I am so motivated to change the reputation of this industry. I, like you, am a hard working honest man and nothing bothers me more the general perception of our industry (I am reminded of a story/post I read here about a customer out in the shop talking to a shopowner's son about making sure he went to college so he didn't have to work in the shop...WOW that hit home!) and how we can be our own worst enemies. I knew from the beginning that I wanted to be part of the next generation of auto shop owner's and operaters. Let me give you a quick run down of my history.

At 19 I was looking for a "job" and just happened to stumble one as a lube tech in a 8 bay shop in Atlanta. It was 6 bays of repair/maint/etc and 2 bays for oil changes. We averaged about 300 cars a week, split 50/50 with OC's and repairs.

I had never really worked on cars much to that point but was always mechanically inclined, so that part really just came easy. About 2 wks in I had that shining moment in my life where I had found my calling. I knew I wanted to own my own shop and I wanted to be one of the good guys doing it. I immediately dove into tech school and working on the thing I didn't prefer to do..deal with people. I'm a personalable guy and love people but given the choice (even today) I would be OK locked in my office with my laptop. I knew even at 19 that I was going to have to excel at every position in the shop to be a good owner. So long story short I did those things, and now I am a multi shop owner with 5 shops in 4 different markets, doing all things to all vehicles. Noone handed me anything, I earned it, and I have made alot of mistakes but the hard work and honesty pulled me through along with a couple of key things.

* Be Honest

* Treat Your Customers Like You Would Treat Your Grandmother

* Good People (employees) Solve Problems!

* Communications Is A Must (both with customers and employee's alike)

* It's A Big Pie (we only need a sliver)

There's alot more to the story but I won't bore you any further.

 

Thanks for letting me be a part of your dream.

 

Collectively we CAN make a difference!

By the way I just wanted to add that I am in SC, I started in Atl.

Joe, buddy ya said it right. I will have to put myself into the catagorey of "self made mechanic/owner" as I stated in my book.. "If only I knew then what I know now...."

 

As you said, me too, I was the kid that fixed everybody's car, I was good at it ... at a very young age... and I'd would agree that it was being a mechanic first and businessman second.

 

I am very... very proud to be a part of the independent work force in this industry and not ashamed to say "I'm an independent"... there's no golden wrench under my pillow... I'm a blue collar family guy with a lot of time learning to run a business... Nobody handed my a pot full of money to start... I did it the hard way... and I'm still here.

 

Joe, I guess that's why we see eye on a lot of issues... you and me... we came from the same streets. Glad to be a part of ASO... glad to keep posting... I think it's great what you've done with ASO...

 

more shops should know about it.

At this point, I am regretting using the "independent" thing in my first post, because to be honest it was meant to be funny sarcasm not derogatory. Sorry guys!

I'll chime in a little on the extremely low cost oil change deals that are out there. The reason most of us (small one or 2 man shops) don't do them is because it doesn't work economically for us. I don't purchase enough oil or buy the cheap filters to be able to get my COGS down to $8/oil change. I purchase NAPA gold oil filters and use bottled oil (again, I don't use enough oil to buy it in bulk, a 55 gallon drum may last me a year). It costs me over $17 for materials for an oil change. If I priced it at $19.95 I would be losing money. I am priced at $26.95 for a full-on lube, oil and filter which includes lubricating the locks, door hinges, trunk and hood hinges, fill washer fluid, brake fluid, PS fluid, etc... I end up with about $7 for my labor, I think that is low enough. To be honest, I would rather not be pushing a low cost oil change and would rather push a "Free" scan of codes as that will invariably lead to more work without a feeling of "bait and switch". If I offered a low cost oil change and the customer left with a $75 ticket that would bother me. I have read that the "average" ticket at most oil change places is over $75. Those people are just looking for an oil change and they end up with the motor flush or coolant flush or trans flush, etc.... Those are customers that won't be back or will tell their friends about how they got scammed at "xyz" auto shop.

I don't see this forum as a meeting place for quick-lubes or shops like that. I may be wrong, but I think most of the shops on here are more of the "independent" type trying to be competitive in a difficult market. I also think the bait-and-switch doesn't have to be getting them in the door with a low advertised price and then hitting them with a higher price for the same service. It can also mean (to me) getting them in the door with a low cost service and then hitting them with high pressure sales of another add-on service. That to me is bait-and-switch. If you are truly honest about a $19.95 oil change being profitable then you shouldn't be upset that you have a service manager that isn't up-selling customers. I would have to say that is probably not the case.

In my case, I don't want to have to put on a hard sell to get a customer to spend more with me. If they are happy with just an oil change then I am happy to provide that service for them.

It is true that it's not for everyone. You will not hear me disagree and there are a million reasons why it isn't good for you.

It looks like what you are doing is working for you and that is a good thing!

I guess the issue I'm struggling with is the assumptions or perception within the industry.

* Cheap oil and filters are used. I am fortunate that I have the buying power to get my COGS down but I can promise you it wasn't easy. Volume also dictates price in this area.

* High Pressure Sales or Bait & Switch. Of course, we do take the opportunity to check a vehicle out. To be honest, I think it's a disservice to NOT check over my customers vehicle. But there is no high pressure, we just inform and educate, and the rest will come. It's a process and I promise you it takes patience and long term thinking. Interestingly enough my oil bays have become a great source for repair work, more so than flushs, add-ons, etc.

Early on I resigned to the fact I wasn't going to "make money" on the oil change but I would in the long term, getting those 3-5 times a year to build relationships with my customers. Check out "Customers For Life" when you get a chance. It's a great read and although it's not directly related, you'll get the drift.

Again this is just me and I have found it to be effective. I didn't start out doing things this way, in fact there was a time when I had maybe 10 oil changes a week.

Yes, they are a necessary evil. However, my best customers have come from simple oil changes. My new customers, the ones that are interested, i take the time to go over the benefits of regular oil changes, maintenance, checking things like air filters, belts, hoses, etc... They leave my shop knowing that I'm not just there for the sale, I truly do want their cars to last as long or longer than they want them to. I think it helps, in my case, that I'm not a "salesman" as much as I am a technician. I don't care if you don't have me do the work, just be sure to get it done because the vehicle isn't safe. That statement does more than the low-cost services to keep them coming back.

Ok Friends seen this article and wanted to pass it along.

Free Diagnosis...

Thanks Jeff, I didn't see that article before.... I left a comment... directed the readers to my story... diagnostics fee/diagnostics free.... should stir the pot a little more... LOL

Jeff, what makes them successful is that these free checks gets a person in the door with a vehicle that you know already has a problem. A free scan should be nothing more than the Autozone scan or even simpler. For example: "The vehicle computer is showing a code for the Oxygen sensor circuit. If you would like us to diagnose this problem, the charge is $xx.xx" or something to that effect. A code check should be a very simple "code check" and that's all. I would even go as far as to use a simple code reader and not your high dollar scan tool to keep you from going to far into the diagnosis. That way the customer can't say "what does your fancy computer say?" If you are having a hard time getting people through the door then the free code check can get customers in. Just be very careful about how you sell the service and diagnostic if you get that far with a customer. You don't want to be charged with "bait and switch".

My gut level response is this type of advertising and the response to it is all because a segment of consumers do not want to pay for or see the value of proper diagnosis. The whole mess has been fueled by Autozone's "FREE" Diagnosis. Unfortunately the public doesn't understand the difference between reading a code and doing diagnosis. Autozone uses the code reading to sell more (often unneeded) parts and shops like Aamco are using it to try to sell more time and repairs. To me neither is much different and both approaches are somewhat deceptive but it is always the service chain or facility that gets the black eye in the media.

 

If we offer free scanning we need to educate the customer in the difference of scanning and retrieving codes and understanding the running issue that is causing that code/codes to appear.

Here's a new twist on this "free" get it for nothing deals. I've got a fello shop owner (who has only been in business about 4 years) and has a unbelievable following... I contribute that to the "new broom sweeps well" theroy... he is trying a new approach. He is adding a new advertising deal. If you bring in so many non-perishable goods you get a free evac/charge for your air conditioning system. Sounds good, and in fact one of the suppliers is suppling free refrigerant too.

I told him I tried the same thing about 10 years ago... it worked well... until you looked over the books in the next following years and found out that none of those "free-be" customers ever came back for any work... ever.

I guess you could say.. "your results may vary... but after all these years I'll stick to my old customers and new one as they show up."

Call me over the hill... but at least I can see to the bottom... I stopped wondering whats over the next ridge. Been there, done that.

Dwayne that was gonna be my approach. Use a code reader to pull codes, that would prevent excessive time. Then if a customer balked I could show them the AZ code reader and my "fancy" computer in the hopes they would see the value. Same as a/c check. Walk out to car, hook up gauges, checks belts and pressures. Need service "let me show ya the a/c recovery and recharge machine". Ya want free, thats what ya get. I am still on the Fence but just dont know what to do, really struggling here.

When these type of people go to their jobs... does their boss come up and say, "I want you to look at this... but I'm not paying for your time here at the office to do this... I just want you to look it now, while you're here at work, where you get paid to be... but I'm not paying you to just look at this, even though you're at work and this is what you do...." Seriously... doubt it...

In my opinion there are two types of people that are primarily attracted to free diagnosis. First, is those people who want something for nothing. They only do the minimum to keep their car moving and no amount of time spent with them converts them into what I consider to be a good customer. Some in this category only want to know what's wrong with their car they don't intend to fix anything. Some only want to know what's wrong with their car so their "regular mechanic" can fix it or so they can fix it. You know the story.

 

The other type of customer is the customer who watches their cash closes either out of habit or necessity. They will pay for reasonable needed repairs they can afford but they are deathly afraid of being taken advantage of and they feel like paying for the diagnosis fits into that category. If you work with the second type you can win their trust and have a long term customer.

Amen brother xrac... AMen! I entirely, whole heartedly, completely, with out a doubt ... AGREE. Some you'll win over, and those others.... oh them... they make great stories for old Gonzo to write about...

I just joined a couple of days ago and going through older threads I came across this one and felt compelled to comment. This subject is near and dear to me.

The shop I currently manage spent many years doing free diagnostics and rarely charged. If they did charge it was at most 1/2 hour with a promise to deduct the charge if the customer had the repairs done.

Yeah, that really worked good for them. Customers would bitch about the 1/2 and they owner would take that off whether the customer had the work done or not.

When I took over I established a base rate of one hour for diagnostic testing for drivability problems. I wrote it into a menu item that detailed the use of an electronic diagnostic scanner, pin-point electrical testing as necessary, etc. Left open in the narrative that depending on the type of codes or problems discovered additional testing might be required. Did they scream? You bet they did. It is very difficult to retrain customers who have been spoiled. They didn't squawk about laying down 80 grand for a BMW or M-B did they? Nope, gotta have that rolling bling-mobile.

I simply explain that before I put several thousand dollars worth of diagnostic equipment on their car operated by a trained technician I have to be comfortable knowing the efforts put forth will be compensated for properly. Several of our customers are doctors so I have no problem looking them dead in the eye, describing the pain in my shoulder and asking them to diagnose it for free right there on the spot. No, they insist I will have to come to their office. Free diagnosis I ask? Of course not. End of discussion and I patiently wait for them to sign the estimate sheet for the diagnostic or turn around and leave. Lawyers? I calmly pick up the phone, call a number (tech in the back cell phone), ask a few questions about the can, a few hmmmm's, and Uh-huh's, then put a "consutation fee on the ticket. (That one works on doctors too.)

I explain that while our jobs are different our shop is staffed by professionals with years of training just like their office is. They don't do anything for free and we certainly can't afford to either. Nor should we be expected to. If they start telling me how some other shop doesn't charge for the diagnostic I ask why they are in front of my counter instead of the free guy's. Uhhh, they like our work.

Fine, our work involves highly professional diagnostic services for which we charge a fair price.

I don't mind getting them all saddled up on what my assistant refers to as the Merry-Go-Round. After a few laps they have the option to get off and leave, or pony up for the requested services.

As long as bottom-feeders are willing to do it for nothing it will be an uphill battle. As shops we need to start working professionally and standing our ground. Enough of the cut-throat attitude that just hurts everyone in the business.

BTW, the owner screamed for days about me charging for diagnostics when I took over the shop but I explained to him the reasons and told him to simply get out of the way and stop letting customers beat him up. At the end of the first month when I showed him the numbers and he realized how much money he had been leaving on the table he quieted down a lot. When I explained that the mechanics were doing a better job diagnosing now that they were getting paid (flat-rate scale here) and how much it increased sales he got even quieter. When he saw the figures for profit margin, RO averages, etc. he decided I was doing exactly what he had hire me to do. Turn the shop around so we were more professional and making a profit.

Free diagnostics? Not here.

My opinions are my own but I know lots of shop owners feel pretty much the way I do.

Max

I couldn't have said it better myself. The intention of the article was to get feedback from across the country as to how everyone feels about diagnostics... I wish there was a way you could put a stop to the free services... the way you handled it with the owner was quite brave ... but effective.

we need more guys like you out there,,... great effort, great responce... Gonzo

I just joined a couple of days ago and going through older threads I came across this one and felt compelled to comment. This subject is near and dear to me.

 

The shop I currently manage spent many years doing free diagnostics and rarely charged. If they did charge it was at most 1/2 hour with a promise to deduct the charge if the customer had the repairs done.

 

Yeah, that really worked good for them. Customers would bitch about the 1/2 and they owner would take that off whether the customer had the work done or not.

 

When I took over I established a base rate of one hour for diagnostic testing for drivability problems. I wrote it into a menu item that detailed the use of an electronic diagnostic scanner, pin-point electrical testing as necessary, etc. Left open in the narrative that depending on the type of codes or problems discovered additional testing might be required. Did they scream? You bet they did. It is very difficult to retrain customers who have been spoiled. They didn't squawk about laying down 80 grand for a BMW or M-B did they? Nope, gotta have that rolling bling-mobile.

 

I simply explain that before I put several thousand dollars worth of diagnostic equipment on their car operated by a trained technician I have to be comfortable knowing the efforts put forth will be compensated for properly. Several of our customers are doctors so I have no problem looking them dead in the eye, describing the pain in my shoulder and asking them to diagnose it for free right there on the spot. No, they insist I will have to come to their office. Free diagnosis I ask? Of course not. End of discussion and I patiently wait for them to sign the estimate sheet for the diagnostic or turn around and leave. Lawyers? I calmly pick up the phone, call a number (tech in the back cell phone), ask a few questions about the can, a few hmmmm's, and Uh-huh's, then put a "consutation fee on the ticket. (That one works on doctors too.)

 

I explain that while our jobs are different our shop is staffed by professionals with years of training just like their office is. They don't do anything for free and we certainly can't afford to either. Nor should we be expected to. If they start telling me how some other shop doesn't charge for the diagnostic I ask why they are in front of my counter instead of the free guy's. Uhhh, they like our work.

 

Fine, our work involves highly professional diagnostic services for which we charge a fair price.

 

I don't mind getting them all saddled up on what my assistant refers to as the Merry-Go-Round. After a few laps they have the option to get off and leave, or pony up for the requested services.

 

As long as bottom-feeders are willing to do it for nothing it will be an uphill battle. As shops we need to start working professionally and standing our ground. Enough of the cut-throat attitude that just hurts everyone in the business.

 

BTW, the owner screamed for days about me charging for diagnostics when I took over the shop but I explained to him the reasons and told him to simply get out of the way and stop letting customers beat him up. At the end of the first month when I showed him the numbers and he realized how much money he had been leaving on the table he quieted down a lot. When I explained that the mechanics were doing a better job diagnosing now that they were getting paid (flat-rate scale here) and how much it increased sales he got even quieter. When he saw the figures for profit margin, RO averages, etc. he decided I was doing exactly what he had hire me to do. Turn the shop around so we were more professional and making a profit.

 

Free diagnostics? Not here.

 

My opinions are my own but I know lots of shop owners feel pretty much the way I do.

 

Max

I have to admit, I fell into the Free diagnostics pit last week. I had a new customer stop by (by referal, I don't advertise at all). Customer shows up with a vehicle that passed the safety portion of the inspection but failed the emissions portion. For those of you outside NY, the emissions inspection is just a visual check for tampering of emissions components and a simple check of the onboard monitors. If more than 2 monitors (on newer vehicles it's only one) are not completed the emissions test fails (this is done through a NYS computer system, so it can't be fudged). He stops at the shop and tells me about a month ago he had the ses light on, took it to Autozone and they said the oxygen sensor on Bank 1 Sensor 2 was bad. He replaced the oxygen sensor but doesn't drive the truck much so the monitors didn't have a chance to run (O2 heater circuit). He does my patented loop around the block that I have used several times as a drive cycle to get the monitors to set so I can do the inspection. He comes back and I hook up my scanner to see if the monitors have been set. Nope. I tell him, drive it around the next day and bring it back and we'll get it inspected. He comes by the next night and the ses light is on. Tells me it went on when he pulled in his driveway last night. I check the codes: O2 heater circuit bank 1 sensor 2. I say "are you sure you changed the right sensor". "Yep, I changed the one Autozone told me to". OK, slide under the truck, follow the exhaust back from bank 1 (this truck has 2 cats right next to each other). I see the new sensor..... It's not bank 1 it's bank 2!! He says "I'll just put the old sensor from bank 2 in bank 1". Comes back the next day. Couldn't swap the sensors, different connectors. Bought ANOTHER new o2 sensor. "Can you check it now?". I plug in my scanner and low and behold..... Pending code for o2 heater circuit bank1 s2, monitors still not set. I tell him he's got a wiring problem and he needs to do some research online (actually told him to buy a 1 year subscription to Alldata) to see what wires control the heater circuit on that sensor. By this time I'm realizing what an idiot I am for offering to check it before putting it on the NYS computer. At least if I put it on the NYS computer I can charge $11. He goes home, comes back the next day. I ask "did you 'shoot the wires and find the problem?". "Nope, took the new o2 sensor out and took it back to Autozone and got another new one". Great, I know it's not going to pass and now I'm a little ticked off that he didn't listen to me. He says "my buddies at work didn't have a clue. They know it's not the wiring." I send him on his way again, and tell him he needs to 'shoot the wires to make sure the heater is getting voltage. He hasn't returned yet, it's been 2 days. I'm guessing he's 'shooting the wires or is having someone else do it. I would bet, if he had asked me to diagnose the ses light in the first place he would have paid maybe $100 and been done in a day. He's now going on over a month because he doesn't see the value in paying someone to diagnose the problem instead of selling parts. I guess the real winner in this story is Autozone. They sold 2 oxygen sensors that were unnecessary. I think I'm the big loser in this, but it has taught me a valuable lesson: You must (I must), as a shop owner, understand that a diagnostic fee is necessary and can actually save a customer time and money in the long run.

The word "sell" is the key... nothin' is free...

Rather than sell diagnostic time sell a level one testing procedure and explain to the customer that these tests can determine which components are still working properly and that you can eliminate them as the possible cause of their problem. This does not then obligate you to find the exact problem and the customer can then take the car if they want with a printout of the tests you have performed for them or authorize a level 2 testing procedure which will delve closer into the items that are not working. Just a different way of approaching the customer. Doctors do not sell diagnostic time they sell tests that determine what is working properly so they can narrow down their final diagnosis.

We all have seen this in some form or fashion.

Reading the codes--Free

Diagnosing the problem--$50

Fixing it right the first time---priceless.